So you can laugh at me, or tell me I am a moron.
Anyway, I have a 1997 Toyota 4Runner (also called a Hilux Surf) with an automatic transmission and a 3.4L 5ZFE v6. I bought the truck in 2012 with 210K miles on it, and it has been an amazingly reliable and all around useful vehicle for my growing family, for work, and exploration. So much so. that I decided, when faced with the choice of purchasing a newer vehicle, or putting a new engine and transmission in the 4runner to bring it up to new, that I would Zero hour the 4Runner and have a reliable, sound truck that is less complicated than the newer counterparts, and not have a $350-500 dollar monthly car payment for something that is far to electrical for my taste, and far too expensive to fix.
SO, that's what I did. My poor 4Runner has been called a Lemon, but 40K and three-4 years challenges that statement. The Toyota had served me well for 41,000 miles, having only two issues in three years: A leaky radiator hose that I replaced, and in doing so, cracked the plastic upper radiator tank, which resulted in a new radiator, and a stripped spark plug. It served faithfully in Montana and Arizona, and it really could, In my mind, not be replaced by a newer version that would be as reliable or cost effective.
October of 2015 saw the 4runner's transmission develop a small shudder, to which I was prepared: the truck was over 250K at this point. stuff is bound to wear out. So I had the transmission replaced with a manufactured unit. Which suffered from a stuck valve, and resulted in me having it warranty replaced by the original transmission that the shop had reconstructed. This works wonders.
THe engine, however..... Well, This is where it will be the LONG read. I am literally going to copy and paste from the document I have written documenting the whole goddamn process that I have dealt with. I am fully aware that I am being too nice of a guy, and that everyone else by now would have called their lawyer.
Which I am going to.
Anyway, read on...
4Runner was delivered by shop on Nov 18th, with 251,522
miles on it. Speaking with Tanya in the office,
I was told to drive it kind and not to overstress the 4Runner. Shop was aware of the 4Runner’s pending
journey north after break in. Vehicle
break in on the new engine to last 500 miles.
Directions to baby the 4Runner for the first 500 miles very direct,
attached to invoice and explained to me on Saturday Nov 21.
4Runner driven short trips,
within Phoenix and Mesa, staying
below 55mph and alternating acceleration and braking. 4Runner finally reaches 252,022 miles, the break in point, on Dec 12th.
Nov 6th: Vehicle is dropped off at The Engine Builders.
Nov 18th, 4Runner is
delivered Engine Builders. Dropped off
at airport on Nov 21st. Picked up Nov
25th. 4Runner is driven smoothly, lightly,
and without stress until the 12th of December.
During the break in period,
NO leaks were observed from engine and cooling system. Oil is checked every day, every drive. Oil Change is done on December 13, after 4Runner drains and cools the night of
the 12-13th. Oil Change is Completed
with a Wix 51348 oil filter and Castrol 10w-40 oil. Oil is still checked every day. No warning lights during break in period After oil change, 4Runner is driven on highway. All fluids remain at good levels, no leaks, and nothing to suggest seal or
gasket failure. Oil change reported.
4Runner sees transmission replacement on Dec 19th.
4Runner is loaded and on the road for final move to Montana
on Dec 20th. Morning saw oil and
coolant levels checked before hitting the road,
all of which checked out. No
leaks observed, no warning lights.
4Runner driven on highway north toward Wickenburg. 40 miles north of Wickenburg, 4Runner starts experiencing shudder, power loss, and lower speeds. Pulling over and doing a walk around while
vehicle idling showed no leak or
issues. Turning off and restarting of
4Runner resulted in a billowing cloud of oil smoke. 4Runner is shut off. 7 mile walk is taken before cellular
signal enough to reach 911 is found to call AZHP and call for a tow truck. When Tow finally arrived and 4Runner
loaded, closer inspection reveals oil
on frame and exhaust manifold on right side of engine, and oil blowback along the frame and belly of
truck. No warning lights on dash when
this issue occurred.
Cost of tow to Wickenburg from mile 163: $275.00
Hotel in Wickenburg for the Night of Dec 20-21: $65.78
Tow to Engine Builders on Dec 21, covered by AAA.
Dec 21: Inspection of 4Runner at the shop revealed a
possible leaking/failed valve cover gasket, a possible ring issue and a PVC
issue. Oil is checked, ¾ of a quart low on oil. 4Runner is started, let idle, and then moved back into the shop
area, billowing oil smoke. Removal of air intake pipe connecting the air
box to the intake to gain access to the right side revealed the pipe and
resonator chambers were full of oil. Inspection of Air filter shows saturation
of one corner of Air filter with oil, and significant oil blow by in
airbox. Oil is poured out, pipe is disassembled, cleaned and reassembled. Airbox cleaned out to the best of mechanics
ability without removal. Brake cleaner
used to clear oil off of air filter.
Valve cover gasket was not replaced
but valve cover bolts are so loose that the bolts are able to be
tightened by hand before the ratchet can be used to tighten them. PCV valve is replaced, along with the PCV
hose to the intake. Oil is topped
off. Shop charged $20 dollars for the
oil, and the PCV/hose. 4Runner is
driven around block, running
roughly, then clearing up as oil in
intake, exhaust and cylinders is burned off.
4Runner is driven from Glendale to Mesa,
then back north. Hiccupping near
Wiciup Arizona results in an inspection of intake pipe and intake butterfly,
revealing more oil in pipe. Engine is over a quart low on oil. No leaks are
visible. Phone calls between myself and the Engine Builders results in several
conversations with Greg, the owner, about the possible problem. The suggestion is that there is an issue
with the PCV valve and PCV system.
Following the directions of the shop,
I inspected all the hoses and lines, all of which seem to be clear. Shop suggests replacing the PCV valve, Greg not knowing that the valve had already
been replaced 4 hours earlier.
Discussion of possible crank case blow-by issue is deemed not possible
by shop. Notified the shop of my intent
to drive to Kingman, AZ, 53 miles from Wiciup. At no point was I told not
to. Purchase of another quart of 10w40
oil at gas station (5.49), engine oil
is brought up to normal level. 4Runner is limped to Kingman, stopping at O’Reilly Auto parts. Purchase of a new PCV valve ($2.69), two quarts of Castrol 10w40 oil (5.99
each) , two cans of Brake Cleaner to flush the intake pipe out (5.79) and two
feet of 3/8s vacuum line for PCV system (that was not replaced and remains in
the 4Runner currently, 3.49) brings total to $35.23 in oil and parts to
address the problem. Stayed in Kingman
AZ the night of Monday, Dec 21. Motel
cost in Kingman is $55.57.
Research into the problem on a Toyota specific internet
forum (
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/211623-oil-intake-intake-pipe.html ) and asking other 4Runner owners netted a
general consensus that the issue is piston ring blow by, and there is a need
for a compression test on the engine.
Dec 22nd: 4Runner
is picked up by AAA in Kingman and brought back to Glendale after waiting 5
hours. 4Runner is dropped off at Engine
Builders owner Greg’s personal residence for security concerns due to arriving
after shop closes for the day. In
order to return home for Christmas, and to allow the 4Runner to be repaired
correctly, I leave the 4Runner and purchase a plane ticket for Dec 23rd to
Missoula, MT. My concerns about shop
storage and repairs are answered with “We will take care of it”.
Plane ticket:
$174.00 Hotel near airport:
$119.16, night of Dec22-23, Taxi to
airport: $18.06
Total costs, not
including fuel and food: $762.80
Jan 5th: Call the
Engine Builders at 2:57pm to inquire about my 4Runner, having not heard anything. Make contact with Tanya, who tells me that the 4Runner was just
brought into the shop to be looked and that she or the mechanic will call me on
the next day, Wednesday the 6th.
Jan 6th: No phone call from shop
Jan 7th: Received confirmation on a work project starting
the next week. Called the shop three
times, at 1:57pm, 3:04pm, and 3:53pm
reaching the message machine. Left
one message asking for a call back.
Jan 8th: No phone call from shop. Called shop four times, at 11:05am, 2:17pm, 3:33pm, and 4:35pm, leaving two
messages to inform them of my pending arrival,
and requesting a call back. No
calls are received from the shop.
Jan 11th: Arrived at
shop at 3:30pm to inquire in person after work, and to retrieve items from
4Runner for work. Introduced to the new
mechanic, who I believe is named Brian, who is working on my vehicle, that he just now had a chance to look
at. His diagnosis is that Number 3
fuel injector has been spraying full blast the entire time (a theory NOT explored
the first time I brought the truck in for the same issue on Dec 21), that the oil has been thinned by fuel, and
that carbon debris inside the engine has ruined the PCV valve, causing the
engine to pull oil into the PCV system and,
the intake. He also informs me
that the spark plugs are not the correct plugs for the Toyota 3.4l engine, which requires Platinum, single diode
sparkplugs. The plugs he found during
his inspection are not correct, to which he says he will take care of it, and
make sure that the plugs are replaced with the correct ones. Insisted that I wouldn’t be charged for
that.
I was informed that Number 3 fuel injector will need
replaced, at $173.00, and that the oil and filter will need changed due to fuel
contamination. I attempted to speak
to Tanya in the office to get a total price,
only to find that she had left for the day. I left a request that she call me the next
day with the total cost of the repair.
Jan 12th: Called shop
to find out cost, then make decision on
when I can afford to pay it. Made
contact with Tanya who told me that the 4Runner was already repaired, and that
her mechanic was out driving it. Bill
was $220.00. I was told I could pick it
up the next day.
Jan 13th: Pick up my
4Runner close to 4pm. Office was already
closed. One of the mechanics,
Johnny, called Tanya to confirm the bill
and payment. One of the mechanics,
Byron, said it was a Warranty repair,
but the phone call confirmed the bill.
I spoke to Tanya on Johnny’s cell phone, and was informed as to why she
had to leave early, a confirmation on
the bill, and was told that the shop had been starting and running the truck
often, and that it had been taken out several times, driven quite a distance. If I recall correctly, she said something
about 20-30 miles. She told me that she would email me an invoice with the
repair breakdown. I paid Johnny the 220
dollars, which was witnessed by my
coworker. Placing my hand on the hood
of my truck confirmed it was still warm from being driven, but when I got in the 4runner, looking at the trip counter on the truck only
revealed 2.6 miles on the clock. The
clock at some point had been zeroed after I had dropped the 4Runner off at the
shop in December. Unless the mechanic
who was driving the truck zeroed the clock,
my 4runner had only been driven a short distance.
Driving the truck from Glendale to my lodging in Tempe, the
truck drove fine. The 4Runner was
parked in the driveway, as a vehicle has been provided for the length of this
project.
Jan 16th: I checked the oil in the morning, which was a quart low. The missing quart was replaced, and the
truck was driven about 16 miles to test
the repair. Truck seemed to be
a bit low on power until reaching operating temperature, but still didn’t feel right. Upon returning from the test, the 4Runner was allowed to cool down. I removed the intake tube to inspect the
throttle intake. Doing so spilled more
oil out of the one of the intake resonators.
Oil was drained into a bucket.
Inspection of the air filter revealed more oil contamination. An engineer friend looking into the oil cap
made note of the extremely heavy carbon buildup that is visible underneath the
valve cover, suggesting a potentially
serious carbon burn issue, or the
possibility that the top end of this engine was not cleaned correctly during
the rebuild., or addressed at all,
stating the carbon build up like that would be a result of thousands of
miles of driving. I was forced to clean
out the intake tube of oil, the
throttle, Mass Airflow Sensor, and air
box. I called the shop at 2:06pm,
leaving a message asking for a call back on Monday to discuss the issue.
Jan 18th: Received
call at 8:09 am from Greg at the engine builders, who again told me that they would take care
of it, and that the vehicle running LEAN on a cylinder would cause issues. I needed to correct him three times that
his mechanic told me the injector was running on full. He was unsure as to why the office had not
sent me the invoice for the injector repair, and said that his mechanic
probably zeroed the clock when I asked about it. I was told to bring the 4Runner back in so
they can take care of it.
At 3:17, at the suggestion of family who utilize his shop, I
contacted Jake at Master Technician Inc.
Toyota’s Only, in Missoula,
Montana. I related to Jake the
situation and issues with the truck, to
which his response was there should have been warning lights on the dash, Check
Engine lights, Misfire codes, and the
vehicle would have been running very
poorly if one injector was running lean or pouring fuel. I was also informed that, unless direct
from Toyota dealership parts are used,
the engine will not run properly.
Jake also informed me that there is no rebuild “kit” for the 3.4 from Toyota, that all the parts
would have to be purchased piecemeal.
There is also no timing kit available,
only piecemeal parts for the assembly.
He said, based on what I have told him,
that it sounds like there is an issue with rings. He said that there are 3 rings per
cylinder, 2 for compression, one for
oil. Jake suggested that a borescope be
used to see the inside of the cylinders to inspect if there is ring
damage. However, based on what I told him, he believes there is more than one ring
issue, and in his experience, there is no way to correctly rebuild a 3.4 liter
v-6 short of Toyota doing the job themselves.
His own company policy is to not rebuild a 3.4, but to get a Toyota spec short block, or a
low mileage unit.
Jan 19th: Called
shop at 7:45pm, left message, and also
sent an email to The Engine Builders requesting an invoice for the Jan 13th
bill of $220, and also a copy of all the invoices, with part numbers, of all the parts that have been put in my
truck since November 6th. Requested
this information be sent to me by noon of Jan 20th.
Jan 20th: Received
the invoice for the Jan 13th repair via email. Date on invoice shows it was
created on January 20th, 2016, and that the balance due is $0.00. Repairs show no Oil change charges on
ticket, and a charge for a PCV Valve and
Hose at $26.38. PCV hose was replaced on
Dec 21st, 2015 when the first PCV valve was changed. Still did not receive
copies of vendor receipts showing the parts purchased for my vehicle. Called shop at 8.46am to again request
copies of these parts.
At 10:01am, I spoke
with Chris from Master Tech in Missoula, Montana, asking about their experience with low
mileage JDM engines, and getting a 3rd
opinion about the injector fault and the check engine lights, to which I was informed that the Flooding
Injector would cause the engine to flood out on that cylinder, and NOT want to fire correctly at all. The vehicle, he said, would definitely run
rough and poorly if an injector failed,
either by dumping two much fuel or too little, and that I would
definitely see an engine code and Check Engine light.
At 10:43, spoke to
Greg from The Engine Builders, who was
inquiring as to when I would be bringing my truck into the shop to be
repaired. I asked about when I was
going to be able to see the vender receipts,
and was told that “We don’t do that.
We don’t write out the lists of every single part that goes into an
engine.” I pressed again, to which I was told that the shop purchases
parts at AutoZone, that they don’t use low quality parts, and that we can put a
borescope into the cylinders to see the new parts. The 7 minute conversation with Greg continued
to the fuel injector running Lean issue again,
to which I again corrected him that his mechanic told me the faulty
injector had been pouring fuel. He
explained to me how the truck would compensated in the other injectors to make
up for the faulty one that was not spraying,
even though I told him again that his mechanic told me that the faulty
injector was flooding out. When I
asked why the engine, as I have been told by two other Toyota Specific
mechanics, didn’t throw any Check Engine
Lights, I was informed that such an
injector problem would only show up “Sometimes”. Greg did confirm that the truck would run
roughly and poorly on a lean/failed or Flooding out injector. The conversation furthered to Greg asking
if my wife had informed me, during the
drop off of the truck on Nov 18th, 2015,
that I needed to run a quart of acetone through the fuel system with the
gas to clean the system and clear the injectors. I informed him that she did not. Greg then asked how many of these other
mechanics and shop owners I have talked to since Monday give their personal
cell numbers to their clients. He
requested that I bring my truck in so they can repair it, and that they will make it right, and that
they will take care of it. I told him
I would have the truck towed to the shop on January 21st, as I was not willing
to drive it out to Glendale uncase of engine issues that may cause more damage.
At 10:52, I called my
wife to ask her about the acetone. She
told me that Greg had started to explain stuff to her, and she had stopped him
and informed him that she was not a car person, and that he needed to tell
me. Greg apparently responded with
“That’s Ok, everything he needs to know
is in the paperwork.” Reading the
paperwork again revealed no mention of Acetone in the fuel system.
Jan 21st.
Called AAA for a tow truck to deliver the 4runner back to The Engine
Builders.
At 1pm, I sat down with Greg at The Engine Builders. He further explained how a bad injector
could damage the engine, and immediately
threw his mechanics under the bus saying that they, as with most all other
mechanics “only focus on one problem and don’t always fix the reason for that
problem”. He said it had been his intent
to drive and diagnose the truck’s issues himself each time it had been in, but had not had a chance too due to the fact
that the truck was “repaired” and
released to me each time before he could test it himself. When I asked about the parts being put in, Greg told me that they put in what AutoZone
sends them. However, during my time at
the office, he had a discussion with
his office manager about the Wrong
spark plugs having to go back to AutoZone because “even though the parts store
sent platinum sparkplugs, the Dealership
and the manufacturer requires a copper spark plug for the Hemi.” Pointing that out to me, he laid it out that he is able to catch such
things in the shop only if he is able to see them or catch them. If he hadn’t been there, that hemi powered dodge
would have been given to the customer with the wrong plugs, which would have in turn caused the care to
run lean, and therefore damage the engine.
When asked about parts, about why my truck was not equipped
with Nippon-Denso plugs, he again told me that the plugs were the ones sent by AutoZone. When I tried to get him to agree to giving
me access to the receipts and invoices for the parts that have been put in my
truck, he told me that he does not buy “rebuild
kits” like other shops do, but buys bearings, oil pumps, rings, pistons, etc from various makers, from the best
companies he knows, and that is how he
builds engines for all of his customers.
While I was given the names of the companies he gets the parts from
(Melling, Heliman, King), which Greg claimed were better quality than original
parts. I was still not shown the
receipts. I took him outside and opened
the oil cap, showing him the carbon
build up in the top end. His reply was
“Let me show you how well things are cleaned” and brought me to the back of the
shop, to the workbench, where he showed me an aluminum timing cover
and oil pan, both well cleaned and
scrubbed. However, this did not answer my question about why
there was so much carbon build up in the engine of my truck. I feel this was a neglected part of my truck’s
rebuild. I asked what his plan was in respect to my vehicle. Greg wants to drive it, see how the vehicle performs, and then will
do a compression check of each cylinder. It is in his opinion that there is a ring
issue. Worse case scenario, there will be damage to the block, which will
require another engine from a donor truck,
that the shop will build and install in my truck. The engine cannot be bored out more than
.30 over the original cylinder size. If
there is scoring on one or more of the damaged cylinders, the block in the vehicle will be
irreparable. They will not be able to
look at my truck until next week. I
will contact the shop Tuesday.
January 26th, 2016. Called shop at 2:05 pm today. No answer,
left a message requesting a call back.
No return call from shop.
Jan 27th:
Called Shop at 1:30pm. No
answer. Left message for call
back. Received call back within 3 minutes, telling me Greg was on the other line, and
that he would call me back when done.
Greg called me back 5 minutes later, and told me that they
were having issues with an older chevy with a stroker engine, which is different than other engines, and that they will get to my truck tomorrow
(January 28th), starting with
a compression test, and, after the compression test is done, start pulling the engine.
Called shop at 3pm,
needing to speak to Greg. No
answer. Left Message.
Has a heated conversation with Greg at 3:40 concerning my
vehicle. At this juncture, I am not terribly confident or happy with the
job that had been done each time my truck was brought in. I am not terribly confident with what I am
being told in respect to the issues, and my confidence is shaky concerning the
job being done quickly.
I point blank asked my truck was not a priority. I was told that it was. When I asked why, considering the situation, my truck was not at the TOP of their to do
list, I was told that it
was…Tomorrow. I was told that his “one
guy” he wants on this big project had to
finish the blazer, and then would be on
mine, tomorrow. When I asked for a time
frame, he told me he would not know
until tomorrow after the compression test.
To address my query into my truck being a priority, and having informed
him that I am no longer holding residence in the state of Arizona and that my
time here for work was limited, he
pointed out the job that was done on Dec 21st, saying that they did
it immediately. He told me each time I
brought the truck in it was looked at immediately. When I asked why the truck only just got looked
at and fixed on January 11th-12th, AFTER I returned to
Arizona, and the truck had been at the shop since Dec 22nd, the conversation started to devolve. The conversation rapidly got heated, with Greg talking loudly over me, telling me again how well his shop builds
engines, how I could go out and talk to
his distributers on how he builds “stronger and better engines” and about the
quality of the parts used ( I still not have been given or shown copies of the
parts invoices for my truck to confirm). He countered me on every focus I have
brought up, from what his mechanic said,
what I was told by other mechanics was wrong, seemed to be sticking to the story that the
engine would NOT run poorly with a failed injector (he asked if his mechanic
told me the injector was “bad”, to which I said yes, and only seemed to validate it as the failed
part, but not HOW it failed) , or kick
warning lights, and then debunked the possibility of a low mileage JDM engine
due to their poor care. He then told me
I needed to “stop accusing him” of
building a bad motor (which I have not done).
He told me that the problems that they are addressing are something that
any other shop would be telling me “are my problem, not theirs.” After ensuring me, again, that TOMORROW my truck would be first on the
list, and that they would take care of
it, the phone call ended.
February 1, 2016:
Called shop at 1:49pm for an Update.
No answer. Left a message
requesting a call back, asking what had
been found out about my truck.
February 2nd, 2016: Called shop at 8:49am, 10:32am and
1:06pm, leaving a message each time for
the shop to return my call and to please update me with the situation regarding
my truck.
Received a return call from the shop at 2:21pm, and spoke to Greg. Greg informed me that he had been thinking
about what I had said about talking to Toyota specific mechanics and to the
parts counter at the dealership, and
wanted to let me know that he has built a number of the 3.4L V6 engines for
Findlay Toyota in Flagstaff, AZ, and that if his engines had issues, a dealership would not use his services.
Greg then told me that his specific mechanic that he has had
working on my truck was in the hospital,
having gone in for Emergency Surgery for something (he did not know
what) and wouldn’t be back to work until
next Monday, Feb 8th. This
is the only one of his mechanics he is willing to have work on my vehicle. Greg also informed me that his mechanic had
told him that my truck had been “overheated”,
and that there was a crack in the passenger side Intake manifold, and
that the passenger side head gasket had melted. He told me he was unsure, as he has been out towing cars every
day, and is not in the shop to speak
directly to his mechanics. He read to
me a text message from his mechanic (who is still in the hospital) that roughly read “About 97 toyota 4runner,
maroon, cracked passenger side intake manifold pipe, and melted head gasket.” Greg informed me the shop would cover
it, even though the truck “Overheated”, but he wanted to let me know. He also confirmed my vehicle would once
again be worked on Monday, February 8th, when his mechanic he had returned to work.
During the entire time since the rebuild, my truck never exhibited symptoms of running
hot or overheating. The dashboard
mounted temp gauge never went higher than the normal operating temperature
customary for that truck. The truck, during break in, exhibited No loss of coolant, no sign of coolant in exhaust, no coolant smell, no signs or white smoke indicative of a
failed head gasket, and NO sign of
issues relating to a cracked intake manifold,
which would, if I am understanding where the crack is, would cause a massive vacuum leak that would compromise
the vehicle’s ability to run smoothly. Aside
from the oil blow-by, the vehicle has NOT run poorly suggesting any of these
symptoms, including the before
mentioned flooding and/or lean running failed fuel injector.
Due to my mounting concern about this, I called Findlay
Toyota in Flagstaff to confirm Greg’s statement that they use The Engine
Builders as a rebuild shop. Using the 1
888 275-1721 number found on their Flagstaff Dealership website, I spoke to Alec in the Parts department, who I asked about their use of The Engine Builders as an engine
rebuilder. Alec asked why they would
do that when they are able to rebuild engines at their own facility, using off
the shelf Toyota parts. He told me that
an engine swap would result in them purchasing either a used engine or a long
block, remanufactured engine from a business like LKQ Corporation, an auto component
distributer. I
asked about the JDM imported engines, and if they had experience with using
them, and he told me that the dealership avoids them. When I told Alec that Greg
had told me that Findlay had used The Engine Builders, Alec responded that he had never heard of
the company before.
